Whats the best? Questions of weight

[Balsa Pilot]

Greetings to all!
I'm building several aircraft to (hopefully) compete at the Non-Nats this summer at The Flying Aces event in Genesseo N.Y., and am having trouble deciding which is the best way to go, with regard to weight- specifically covering with colour paper, or, spray painting with an airbrush?
The question is somewhat complex; for the 28"w/s Focke-Wulf 190, as you know, The Luftwaffe day fighter colours for 1943, were a dark grey mottled finish over light grey on the fuselage, with angled green and dark green on the upper wing and tail surfaces.
Now the real question : For the wings, and tail, am I better to paint the dark green over light green paper, or cover the entire wing/tail with light green and then add the dark green paper over top of that, then re-shrinking and sealing all after that?
It might seem simple to some but with weight and possibly unforeseen events a major consideration, I'd sure appreciate any help that's available. The rules say I have to include a pilot, so I thought what the heck and went ahead and drew him,(has to be light right?)-coloured with pencil crayon and photo-copied, he turned out really well. A quick visit to STAPLES, and I've got a few sheets of various sized scale pilots, if anyone's interested, let me know and I'll send you a copy of Hauptmann Hans Von Hahn-tell me what aircraft and I will try to get the scale right for you.

Thanks to all for your help
Blue side up!

Henry

[Bill Gaylord]

I built his 190, much lighter than my previous 190, with retracts added. I didn't use RLM Grun, but close enough. While not being a paper person, I would imagine that efficient airbrush painting should be considerably lighter than a second coat of paper. I custom mixed the light blue and airbrushed it on my 190. Took forever, but the light even coating was considerably lighter than spray cans. I can't remember the exact weights, but at the time I was actually checking the paint weight added, where the airbrushing was considerably lighter than the spray can grey finish. The paints certainly matter also. I've literally transferred Rustoleum American Accents spray paints into the airbrush, as they seem to have dense pigmentation, providing good coverage with little paint.

[tom arnold]

The lightest finish is colored tissue but it comes with a price. The colors available usually are not what you want and (this is a biggie) they fade, fade, fade. Patching is usually very apparent as the fresh tissue does not match the old.

A step up is to use a colored tissue that is close to what you want and then airbrush a light coat of the color you DO want and it usually takes just a couple of mistings to get the tone you want. For a color on top of that, like the mottles or the big patches of dark green, you want an opaque coat laid down, especially on the mottles. In the case of the mottles, you don't want to keep going back and re-squirting them to darken them up as the overspray will keeping them growing and growing with each attempt. You want a nice "heavy" coat on the first time squirt of the mottle. On an area like the dark green areas on the wing , I have found the best bet is to mask off the dark areas and you can keep going back with numerous thin coats until you get the tone you want. Naturally, you want to start with the bottom colors the lighter colors. Doing this seems to "preserve" that basic color of the tissue and it does not fade like bare tissue.

While airbrushing the base color over the plane and then attaching cut out tissue sheets of another color on top certainly works and guys have done it, it has some drawbacks. First the tissue has to be colored enough to prevent the bottom color from showing through (same as masking) and you are adding another layer of tissue skin and the diluted glue to attach it. It can look great but it is heavier than just masking and spraying. Bill is right, too. Rattle cans put out a very heavy spray and are really hard to control. Like him I transfer rattle can paint to a bottle and then use it in an airbrush---much better.

Your pilots are going to add a great cool factor to your planes but they are not required for FAC. They will add lots of charisma points from your flying buddies though. Tell me, are you the Henry I spent a very enjoyable time chatting with under the sunshade as we sat out the Geneseo hurricane last summer?

[pedwards2932]

I have been having pretty good luck with printing on white tissue. It doesn't seem to add any weight. For now I am just in the experimental phase. I am using an Epson xp310. I bought refillable cartridges and what was sold as the same ink as the Durabrite for filling. It is water resistant enough to allow for water shrinking as I didn't notice any color bleed. I use a movable photo mount spray adhesive lightly on regular printing paper. Once it dries a bit I take away a bit of the stickiness by taking my hands and touching the surface several times to reduce the adhesion. Then I carefully attach the tissue to the paper using a couple sticks of balsa to hold it off the surface and press it down a little at a time. I included a picture of my first attempt. On this one the ink wasn't water resistant so I had to use steam to shrink and it didn't work as well. I have also gotten some pastel chalk in white that I am going to try next. It is supposed to make the tissue less translucent when you use it on the back side of the tissue.

[Balsa Pilot]

Greetings to all.
Thanks to Bill Gaylord, pedwards2932, and Tom Arnold for taking the time to reply.

Bill, I remember watching your 190 build, thanks for the tips, which of course leads to yet another question.....You and Tom both mentioned transferring rattle-can paint into the air brush? HOW??????

pedwards2932..my copier/printer annoyingly will not print with tissue paper as it jams and rips,balls,mashes etc.,yet what you are doing is very interesting. If you think of it, let me know how you make out I'd like to pursue that method for markings and insignias. Nice work as well btw!
Hi Tom! Yes, that was a very enjoyable time we spent talking last summer. I remember holding the Roland Walfische for you, in Steve Blanchard's very direct WW1 combat launch, and marvelling at your B-26 Marauder. I had thought what you said would be right about the airbrush spray being lighter than a two-layered tissue approach! And, finally have the winding stooge ready to go!(Remember the pictures in the parking lot?) Anyways the FW190 is going to get the spraymist airbrush treatment starting today, so will let you know how it turns out.....it just seems odd that that extra bit of dilute glue and tissue is heavier than the airbrush paint but if its just a mist that's the way I'm going. I don't know where I got the idea FAC rules required a pilot, but hey!, it's a fun thing as you say....also, do they require machine guns be represented 'cause I thought I'd heard that one as well. anyways, still having lots of fun and waiting for just a touch of dry weather so I can start trimming the FW190, and it's little cousin ,Me-109 with a 16.5 "w/s
BTW, last summer on your D0-335 I saw, you had a plywood nose cap to make the front end adjustable with set-screws so I "borrowed" the idea for the front end of this FW-190, sure hope you don't mind?? the FW-190 is a 28"w/s, and I have an 8" gizmo geezer on an adjustable front end for it, so,could you recommend a suitable motor, and/or better propellor to start with after trimming please? Would sure be great to get together with you this summer! Thanks again for all the input!

Best Regards to All
Henry

[pedwards2932]

Here is a pic of my latest using the water resistant ink. I really hate to pay the prices they charge for OEM cartridges but for $60 I was able to get refillable cartridges and enough ink to refill at least 10 times. I got no bleed when I soaked it down to shrink.

[Bill Gaylord]

Greetings to all.
Thanks to Bill Gaylord, pedwards2932, and Tom Arnold for taking the time to reply.

Bill, I remember watching your 190 build, thanks for the tips, which of course leads to yet another question.....You and Tom both mentioned transferring rattle-can paint into the air brush? HOW??????

pedwards2932..my copier/printer annoyingly will not print with tissue paper as it jams and rips,balls,mashes etc.,yet what you are doing is very interesting. If you think of it, let me know how you make out I'd like to pursue that method for markings and insignias. Nice work as well btw!
Hi Tom! Yes, that was a very enjoyable time we spent talking last summer. I remember holding the Roland Walfische for you, in Steve Blanchard's very direct WW1 combat launch, and marvelling at your B-26 Marauder. I had thought what you said would be right about the airbrush spray being lighter than a two-layered tissue approach! And, finally have the winding stooge ready to go!(Remember the pictures in the parking lot?) Anyways the FW190 is going to get the spraymist airbrush treatment starting today, so will let you know how it turns out.....it just seems odd that that extra bit of dilute glue and tissue is heavier than the airbrush paint but if its just a mist that's the way I'm going. I don't know where I got the idea FAC rules required a pilot, but hey!, it's a fun thing as you say....also, do they require machine guns be represented 'cause I thought I'd heard that one as well. anyways, still having lots of fun and waiting for just a touch of dry weather so I can start trimming the FW190, and it's little cousin ,Me-109 with a 16.5 "w/s
BTW, last summer on your D0-335 I saw, you had a plywood nose cap to make the front end adjustable with set-screws so I "borrowed" the idea for the front end of this FW-190, sure hope you don't mind?? the FW-190 is a 28"w/s, and I have an 8" gizmo geezer on an adjustable front end for it, so,could you recommend a suitable motor, and/or better propellor to start with after trimming please? Would sure be great to get together with you this summer! Thanks again for all the input!

Best Regards to All
Henry

I simply spray the rattle can paint, directly into the airbrush container. One issue is that some thinner does evaporate during the process, although usually rattle can paint is thin enough that it still works well in an airbrush. As long as you have the correct type (lacquer or enamel) thinner, you can usually thin it a bit without problems if necessary, such as for motting. One issue there is that over time, some paints are very fussy with thinners and won't store properly, but not so quickly that you can't complete the model painting job. I've learned not to thin any more of my base paint, than necessary for the job. Testors enamels will only store properly when thinned with their enamel thinner. Even when using their airbrush thinner, it goes bad over time, in storage.

[Balsa Pilot]

pedwards 2932 : that is a nice looking ship! and to get this straight you are loading tissue into an Epson printer and it comes out like that?

Bill Gaylord : Thank you, I would never have thought to take a spray bomb and hold it up to the paint jar in a million years, I'd guess a fume mask and outdoors would be the way to go? Do you have trouble finding the right colours for military applications? Also, what kind of airbrush (name & model) do you use?
The one I have isn't sensitive enough to spray the mottles, it's pattern is very "general" and I'm guessing I need a better one to get any kind of detail work.

Thanks guys
Henry

[kittyfritters]

I was doing my air brushing with Testor's Acryl colors but I now do most of my work with opaque acrylic airbrush inks. These are available at artist supply stores in an amazing variety of colors, they come pre-thinned to the proper consistency for air brushing and they are lighter than the acrylic paints. Of course, if you are doing a model of a WW2 German aircraft, Testor's has the line of authentic RLM colors...hard to resist that.

Howard

[pedwards2932]

I use movable photo mount spray on a sheet of paper then take my hands and "desticky" it so it will be easier to remove the tissue. Then I use balsa sticks to hold the tissue off the paper so I can stick the tissue down a little bit at a time. Once I get it smoothed out I cut the tissue to fit. Then I print it (I use the draft setting because you don't need all that ink). Let it dry an peel it off the paper and then you can apply it and shrink with water just like you would normally. Once I get better at it I am going to try it on a scale model.

[Bill Gaylord]

I've been using a cheapie Testors with an small air compressor for some time. It works reasonably well. My better airbrush has had problems for some time, and I never bothered replacing it. For transferring spray paint to airbrush bottles, I tape a stick onto the bottle, to keep paint from getting on my hands, and spray into the bottle as close as possible, roughly a few inches away. Outdoors the fumes are not a problem. I've gotten better with not spraying indoors and fumigating the house, in more recent times. By mixing paints, I can get good variation of colors, with a selection of spray cans. The Rusoluem Accents line carries a number of colors, where a single dark green for example, can be mixed with other colors to create shades from light green, to shades such as RLM grun, which can be made by tinting darker with black. The Rusoleum accents paints have better pigmentation than other brands I've used, and cover well with a minimum amount of paint. I also use Testors cans and enamel paints, although they tend to be costly.

I believe the high cost of model paints is part of the reason a number of folks have gone to acrylics, and mix their own paints from a collection of smaller sample cans and custom mixed paints from places like Home Depot. The Testors paints are nice with their specific colors such as the RLM blue shades, although even they can have batch variations, which partly defeats the purpose of using them. I'll experiment and mix my own until I get something satisfactory, as the small bottles became costly to use for overall finishes.

The motting can be difficult. I have to turn the tip delivery down as much as possible. I can only do a bit, before it stops spraying. I then have to turn the delivery up and test spray on a piece of paper, as it will spray heavy when it starts again, gradually turning it down until I get a very fine spray. The paint has to be quite thin also. Even when doing overall finishing, the paint often has to be a bit thinner than I'd like, but I've learned to be patient with the process. I've found the difference between several drops of thinner in a small airbrush bottle, will make the difference between spraying well and not spraying at all.

[Mitch]

Hello

May not be the best, but it works. About 2 years ago I built the 190, you can find my thread here, search for : 'Red 13'

I used all Guillow wood and paper. 2 coats of dope and I painted with rattle cans of Tamiya WW 2 colors. It flew at WEST FAC V. It flies nice but it is not a national winner, I believe I did win or place in the Guillow Challenge that year with that model.

Airbrushing would be lighter and remember I built with all the wood and paper in the box.

Mitch

PS That model is on a rotating display at my local hobby shop. I rotate Flying models though Skyway Hobbies in Renton, WA about 2 or 3 times per year.

UPDATE: I flew the 190 in "Scale Rubber" category. I did not check my standings but the model flew for almost 30 seconds. I built the Me-109 and used some contest wood, colored domestic paper and 2 coats of dope, and flew that in the "Mass Launch" for the 'Battle of Britain' I was eliminated in the first round with that and both models were at nearly the same weight and had similar flight times. Both models are currently still in my 'Flying Circus'

[Balsa Pilot]

Thanks guys for the input- its really appreciated. I'm currently looking for a higher quality airbrush, one that will allow the kind of control so you can do the mottling of the mid- war Luftwaffe in one squirt.
Mitch I learned a lot from your "Red - 13", build post. it seems the 2 coats of dope and then spray on top works well. Haven't tried the Tamiya rattle cans on a WW2 aircraft yet, but they worked exceptionaly well on the C -170, so that sounds like a good thing to try. There are so many ways to accomplish your goals, always fun trying a new product. The Tamiya products are thought to be pretty high quality I believe?

[Mitch]

Always glad to help and promote the hobby. Although I fly in some contests, I always want to have respectable flights. I do not expect to win at the National Events. I will retrieve my FW190 (Red 13) that has been hanging in the Skyway Hobby shop for the past several months. It will be replaced with a Dumas 18" ws SPAD 7. I have been building up my inventory and plan to fly in several events in October at WEST FAC VI in Buckeye, AZ this October.

I am building about a model every 2 weeks while I am on my ship going to and from Alaska. I am currently building the Edge 540 again, and also helping a fellow shipmate build his Edge 540. Going to the Hobby Shops tomorrow to buy more supplies and more models. I got my fellow shipmate hooked.

Also, after dinner last night I showed off 4 models and gave a talk about my hobby and the Flying Aces Club. All models I hope to fly in completion...

1. MiG 17 = Modern Military
2. Pitts Special = Biplane
3. SPAD 7 = WW1
4. Edge 540 = Modern Civilian

Of course I have several WW2 models but plan to build the Guillow's Corsair

For Thompson Trophy, Wendell Williams Racer
Double Trouble will be Guillow's P-38 (if this flies I can also enter the Jumbo Scale event as the ws is 40 inches)
and Low Wing Military Trainer will again be my version of the Guillow's modified Zero in Bright Orange.

Best of Flying to you... Mitch

[Balsa Pilot]

Wow Mitch, you sure keep busy. That's a good list for your competition squadron.
I'm hoping to take 3 or 4 to Geneseo this summer. Hopefully theres a Guillows Fw-190 (28" w/s), An F6-f 16" w/s, Me-109 , Dumas Wedell Williams 24". Maybe a cat launch glider F-4 if I'm lucky. it was supposed to be 8 or 9 but foolishly one night left the door to the "hangar" open, and the three kittens decided to try their hand at helping me. It didn't work out so great.
Hearty agreement on hoping for consistency in flying, that's where its at!
Good luck this summer at your event, Ill look forward to hearing how you make out.