Anything To Do With 500 Series Kits.

[WIDDOG]

[quote="WIDDOG"]I went with the 5/8 inch dihedral which is what the instructions said to use. On my other two kit 507's I used a full inch dihedral. I once again made the wing with a rubber band hold down.

Ok live and learn... the 5/8 inch dihedral in my opinion is not enough dihedral. I was able to bend in a little bit more dihedral and the plane flew better but still nothing worth videoing yet. I'm glad I went with the rubber band wing tie down. I am going to Re build the wing with more dihedral. Also I am seriously thinking about building another set of wings.

[WIDDOG]

Well I found the propeller and rubber combination that I like the most. Peck Polymer 4 3/4 inch propeller and One Loop or two strands of 3/16" Tan Super Sport Rubber @ 1.25 x length. I decided to post a video, less than spectacular, of some trim flights with the Zero. Anyway I'm not saying I think this is a good video what I am saying is that I had to add a lot of nose clay. http://youtu.be/xnsl9pOinEM . I always knew that that these kits where "Multi Purpose". I think that I am only going to get so far with rubber power. I decided to try and convert this model to Electric Free Flight. I will invest in a quality timer and focus my attentions there. Also I am building a scale rubber powered model designed for rubber power to see how well I can get it to fly.

[Mitch]

Those flights look VERY nice. There were a few small "Peanut" scale models, sized like the 500 series or smaller at the FAC contest I went to.

I do not know everything you tried but her are some suggestions from what I learned at FAC.

1. Bring the wing dihedral up to the bottom of the canopy
2. You can use rubber up to 2 times hook to peg, longer rubber = longer run time
3. Prop size 40% ws: 16 inch wingspan = 6 inch prop, more power
4. Keep the tail light = Compound Interest = less nose clay = lighter model

When everything is tuned in just right, the model should climb in its initial power stage, transfer to a level flight cruise stage, when the motor runs out, have the final glide stage. When you see that happen its a beautiful thing.

For me I'm staying with rubber power! I think you may get me interested in building these 500 series. Mitch

PS Just wondering? How did you wind the motor? Are you using a stooge and "Stretch Winding" This seems to be VERY important to get maximum winds! As Phil (FAC member told me) after I broke my motor with disastrous results... "Mitch, next time back OFF one turn" ... I laughed and said "Thanks!"

Seriously... without a counter or torque meter, you will still feel the motor get hard...STOP, if you went that far and back off a bit... There are charts available for how much you can wind motors. Mitch

[WIDDOG]

Hi Mitch great post! I am a fan of your work with the 400's and 200's! The video was sort of practice for when I got the Zero tuned in better. Anyway I do use a "Stooge" and a 10 to 1 ratio winder. For the trim flights the max I used was 500 winds. I call that field "Trim Field" it's not very big but it is close to the house. I still have my Cox Pee Wee .010 motor for flying 500 Series kits Free Flight. I am trying to get a Co2 motor for the 500 series kits. Please don't get me wrong I like rubber power. It's just that I don't think it's the best choice for these kits. The way things really are, looks like I'm going to have to learn electric. I have a Foammie 4 ch RC plane. I like it it's ok but after flying it today I realized I am more a Free Flight type person. If Guillow's sold a "Kit" (Electric Motor, Battery, Propeller, Timer) for the 500 Series kits they would sell out of them. I guess until than I will have to figure it out.

[Mitch]

Thanks ... and Good Flying to you. I think those little 500 planes can fly well if you build them light enough. I'd like to see what that little plane would do if FULLY wound up, and had enough room to REALLY fly!

I saw something else that was new to me. Some guy was making and selling compressed air engine kits! Kind of like the Air Hogs. But the compressed air is contained in a can. You pump up the pressure with a bicycle pump. I think it would be good in the 1000 series planes will except the Stuka. The plane needs to have a big round fuselage, to hold the air tank. I will look for the info he gave me...

This may be my last post for a while, I have some chores to do before I leave to go to sea what I can see... Mitch

[WIDDOG]

I thought that building light weight would really improve the flight. However, after adding the plastic windshield and the balancing clay the weight I saved in wood is really negotiable IMHO. I now think the place to save weight is not with the wood but with the balancing clay that seems to be needed in the nose of these planes. I read a post where the author wrote a pretty convincing Thread that these kits are designed more for a nose motor than a spread out rubber motor. Anyway I don't know much about electric but I am willing to at least give it a try. I saw this video on Electric Free Flight it sure got me thinking about electric. http://youtu.be/JQ-UPEnDn0g

[kittyfritters]

Thanks ... and Good Flying to you. I think those little 500 planes can fly well if you build them light enough. I'd like to see what that little plane would do if FULLY wound up, and had enough room to REALLY fly!

I saw something else that was new to me. Some guy was making and selling compressed air engine kits! Kind of like the Air Hogs. But the compressed air is contained in a can. You pump up the pressure with a bicycle pump. I think it would be good in the 1000 series planes will except the Stuka. The plane needs to have a big round fuselage, to hold the air tank. I will look for the info he gave me...

This may be my last post for a while, I have some chores to do before I leave to go to sea what I can see... Mitch

You were probably looking at Jim Sprenger's Zephyr air motors. They are much more sophisticated than Air Hog motors. The can is the diameter of a Red Bull can and can be had in small, medium and large lengths.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4049997

These things are quite light and amazingly powerful. Jim has many other products for modelers, air and rubber powered.

[Mitch]

Hey Guys... back home for a few hours...

Not a 500 series, but I think its the same scale...my WW2 Focke-Wulf jet fighter!



Still CAN NOT find rapier motors. This will have to be a glider until I get some motors...

I think the 500 series are GOOD kits for the money at <10 dollars. This kit is $30 and I CUT OUT ALL the parts... Mitch

[WIDDOG]

Hi Mitch,

Super cool WW2 Focke-Wulf jet fighter! Looks great! I learned so much from building the 500 Series kits that I decided to attempt a Scratch Built Peanut Scale Fokker DR1. Since my models where always "Wheels Up" mode I'm not too sure how well the landing gear will hold up. I will be building a Guillows F14 Tomcat so I will be around.

[img][IMG]http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6910/w04u.jpg[/img]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/img]

[Mitch]

Hey... just put in an order with AC supply for some 500 kits and a few others... 100 dollar order = FREE SHIPPING!

I just weighed my 500 Me109 skeleton and it is 17g. It may not seem like much but that's ONLY the skeleton! Got a new set of Luftwaffe planes coming in and plan to build with my NEW methods and adjustments and a bit of contest wood...also just got a B-17 for 60 dollars on ebay! I am not sure what to do with that? I would like to build it as light as possible and load up 4 rubber motors! BUT... before that I have the Lightning I want to have built before next years FAC contest in Perris and have it ready for "DOUBLE TROUBLE" I still believe these Guillow kits can fly, we NEED to use BETTER wood!

I will like to see how a 500 series FW 190 looks next to the Flitzer FW "jet" !

Mitch... Keep Building, Keep Flying, Stay forever YOUNG!

[Bill Gaylord]

Hey Guys... back home for a few hours...

Not a 500 series, but I think its the same scale...my WW2 Focke-Wulf jet fighter!



Still CAN NOT find rapier motors. This will have to be a glider until I get some motors...

I think the 500 series are GOOD kits for the money at <10 dollars. This kit is $30 and I CUT OUT ALL the parts... Mitch

That's a cool plane! Looks like really good, clean work also. I built an EDF55 version of the Flitzer, and the design is a great flyer. Instead of the Rapiers, maybe I'll talk you into going with the micro EDF30/rc. A lot cheaper now than when we to remotor GWS fans with 12mm Feigaos. The Vampire is a similar design also, which flys really well. I have a 30mm version of it, that is probably one of the easiest planes I have to fly. It's nearly a hands off flyer, and almost free flight as it is. I think you'll like flying that general airframe design, which should do really well for FF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QFHPBempZE

[WIDDOG]

I'm back to working with rubber power on my experimental Rufe/Zero. I changed my mind on trimming a bit. I was trying to get my Zero to fly like this. http://youtu.be/CfpWzAX2zIY. Mainly I was trying to get the Zero to fly slow circles type of thing. I now am thinking that a higher faster type of flight would be of more benefit for a "Mass Launch" type of flight.

[WIDDOG]

I have tested different thickness of rubber and propeller sizes. The results of my tests where 1/8 inch thick with a 6 inch Peck Polymer propeller seemed best. I tested at 600 winds. Here is video of 1/8 x 6 Propeller x 600 winds. http://youtu.be/3N6aHy9FxTI

[WIDDOG]

Howard said earlier on this thread about increasing the size of the tail by 20%. I will build my next 500 Series kit with a 20% larger tail than what the instructions calls for. I am attaching a video and an explanation as to why I am going to increase the tail by 20%. The video starts out with a typical flight. The plane tilts to one side or the other and banks hard into the ground. On this crash the wings got knocked into a supper sized dihedral. There was some winds left in the motor so I gave it a launch. With the super sized dihedral the plane flew kind of well. I think the rubber motor and propeller are the correct size. Anyway I am hoping that by increasing the tail I can increase the stability and stop the tilting of the model in flight. BTW even with the wings at a dihedral to the bottom of the windshield the plane still tilts in flight.

http://youtu.be/IVeXMePWXS8

[kittyfritters]

Howard said earlier on this thread about increasing the size of the tail by 20%. I will build my next 500 Series kit with a 20% larger tail than what the instructions calls for. I am attaching a video and an explanation as to why I am going to increase the tail by 20%. The video starts out with a typical flight. The plane tilts to one side or the other and banks hard into the ground. On this crash the wings got knocked into a supper sized dihedral. There was some winds left in the motor so I gave it a launch. With the super sized dihedral the plane flew kind of well. I think the rubber motor and propeller are the correct size. Anyway I am hoping that by increasing the tail I can increase the stability and stop the tilting of the model in flight. BTW even with the wings at a dihedral to the bottom of the windshield the plane still tilts in flight.

I think I was misunderstood. It's usually not the TAIL that is undersized for rubber powered free-flight but the STABILIZER. I routinely increase the stabilizer outline by 115% of scale. You have to be careful when you enlarge the vertical tail because if you make it too large you create spiral instability.

The 500 series Rufe/Zero definitely needs an enlarged elevator and could probably use a little more tail area because it does not have as long a tail moment as the other models in the line. As a Rufe, the tail feathers are hopeless. Although there have been modelers who have built super light ones that have flown successfully with the float as a Rufe, they had to do what the engineers at Nakajima did, increase the size of the rudder and add a ventral fin. (With everything else that was going on at the time Mitsubishi did not have the production capacity to do the Rufe conversions.)

Dihedral is another issue. As a general rule of thumb for rubber powered, free-flight, scale models, you should have one inch of dihedral for every 18 inches of wing span. That means the minimum dihedral for the 500 series Zero is 7/8 inch. There are many successful modelers who use another rule, that if it is a low-winged model the wing tip should be level with the bottom of the cockpit canopy. This works well for most WW2 fighters of conventional, tractor configuration. You do have to be careful with dihedral however. Too much dihedral has the same effect as a highly swept wing leading to "Dutch Roll" (waddling in flight) and can induce roll-yaw coupling which can cause nasty instability usually ending in destructive spins. When doing a design for production, in order to get the best scale appearance, I will build several prototypes (or one with easily adjustable dihedral) starting with the 1 inch per 18 inches dihedral and reducing it until I find the minimum flying dihedral for that particular design. Then I go just a little up from there for production.

If you are trying another Zero (And, I must say I admire your persistence.) I'd go with the 1 inch for 18 inches dihedral rule and make the elevator 120% of the original, the tail 110% of the original and see how that works.