Captured Aircraft

[Mad Cap Romanian]

Anyone have any pics of captured aircraft model kits they built?

For example, A German Sopwith Camel or a German Nieuport 11? Maybe something from WWII?

I figured these would be fun because you could switch the decals around between the Nieuport 11, R.A.F. SE5a, Thomas-Morse Scout and Fokker DR.1. (I'm not sure if the Camel is larger or not.)

What would REALLY be Bizzaar would be a French captured Shuckard-Simmions D.1 as it itself was a German copy of a captured Nieuport 11.

Anyway, Please Post!

[BillParker]

I have a Brewster Buffalo kit around here somewhere that has Nazi decals included... That count?


There's an idea... Blow up the Buffalo, and do Finland Nazi markings....

KEWL!


bp

[Mad Cap Romanian]

WWI is always my preferred choice, but WWII and later can be shown too!

Please post the pics!

[BillParker]

there's quite a few planes in front of that Buffalo...

Mayhaps I could do a Japanese Stuka? Howard?

[kittyfritters]

there's quite a few planes in front of that Buffalo...

Mayhaps I could do a Japanese Stuka? Howard?

Bill,

Why not?









You won't be the first.

Howard

[thymekiller]

I like the way kittyfritters thinks about decorations. Dare to be different.

thymekiller

[Mad Cap Romanian]

Looks good! I wonder if the Germans ever got a spitfire though.

[Mad Cap Romanian]

I checked the Wings Pallete web site and found 4 examples of German captured Spitfires. One even had a Daimler-Benz engine installed.

Yours is right on the money!

[kittyfritters]

I checked the Wings Pallete web site and found 4 examples of German captured Spitfires. One even had a Daimler-Benz engine installed.

Yours is right on the money!

I did some research on the web before I did this one. There seems to be some disagreement as to whether this particular Spitfire, numbered 5+2 by the Germans, was the one forced down at Cherbourg and repaired, as shown in the Wings Pallette entry, or the evaluation machine supplied to there French that was captured, intact at Orleans. Anyway, there are several photos of it after it had been repainted at Rechlin. Apparenly, after it was evaluated by the test center it was used, for a while, in a kind of "Top Gun" school to train German fighter pilots how to combat the Spitfire.

The Stuka is a might have been. At least two Stukas were supplied to the Japanese for evaluation and possible production licensing. They were tested by the Japanese Army and Navy. The ones on record were "A" models. They may have had a "B" model, and if they did, this is what it would have looked like while being tested by the Navy at the Yokosuka Naval Arsenal. All over orange with a black cowl was the standard paint job for experimantal aircraft and trainers in Japan during the period. The tail markings are a kanji "ko", indicating that it is assigned to the test center, followed by 'J87-03' indicating that it is the third Junkers Ju87 that they had tested. The Japanese found that the Stuka was an exceptionally accurate dive bomber and had some interesting maintanence features, but it's range was pitifully short and it handled like a pig.

By the way, the cover art on the 500 series Rufe, is a misprint, The photo thet it was done from was of a test article at the Naval arsenal. It was supposed to be orange. Color prints from the 1940s are prone to fading and color changes as they age. There is no reliable reference that any Rufe was ever painted purple.

[Mad Cap Romanian]

Looks good, but the Rufe box art looks red to me, more than purple.

[BillParker]

Looky what I found!


Purple rufe question




Howdy:
I know this has ben asked before since it's in pt.3 of the FAQ, but I cannot access it for some reason so I'll just have to ask it again.
So, what's the deal with this purple Rufe thingie I hear about? Did it exist or not? If so, what color was it and are there any pics? If not, how did this idea come about? I have a 1/32 A6M2 and the idea of a conversion has crossed my mind.

Cheers
Mike Connelley

Re: Purple rufe question *PIC*




In Response To: Purple rufe question (Mike Connelley)

Mike
The "Purple Rufe" myth started, I think, with a 1945 color illustration in John STROUD's "Japanese Aircraft." It was kept alive by such a reference in the IPMS Color Guide to Japanese aircraft camouflage in the early 60's.

In 1966, Rene FRANCILLON made the myth a "fact," which still haunts modellers today, by publishing the color view (see below) rendered by P. Endsleigh CASTLE in Profile Publications No.129.

Perhaps weathering of the original finish down to the red primer coat of the Rufe gave this illusion of "purple" paint on old relics or wreckage?

HTH
Jim Lansdale

Re: Purple rufe question




In Response To: Re: Purple rufe question *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

This would be a camouflage as effective as a black cat on snow.
Could too much sun and salt do this to a regular paint?

Re: Purple rufe question




In Response To: (Deniz Karacay)

There is some use for a mauve/purple camouflage. First, as the song says, "Purple Mountains' Majesty" comes from the view of distant mountains, as things tend to seem grey-violet in view. The Germans used a lot of violet tones, using a rather bright purple in WWI as part of the camouflage for a while.
Second, purple-reddish tones are a very effective camouflage under conditions of fog and twilight. As these are common conditions in the Aleutians, it was probably viewed as a 'not illogical' camouflage conclusion when the sunken Rufes were recovered and studied.
I still think the only reason that the purple Rufe reports occurred was that it was described on airframes that had been pulled out of several months' soaking in Attu harbor (or which ever island). The surface greyish layers were worn down to translucent, and the primer underneath showed through to give a purple/pink cast. This same effect has been visible on the Nimitz Museum's Val wreckage, where the airframe looks pinkish-mauve, but there are remnant rings of grey at points like rivet heads.

.Mark.

Mountbatten Pink




In Response To: Re: Purple rufe question (Mark L. Shannon)

Experts in optics will tell you that red objects are the last to remain visible as twilight falls - the Purkinje effect (spelling?).
However, when commanding a convoy escort Lord Louis Mountbatten was so impressed by the way one particular liner was difficult to see in such conditions that the insisted on the adoption of a similar shade for units under his command - it was known as Mountbatten Pink, but tended to the lavender in shade. Once he moved on to higher things it disappeared from RN use PDQ.

So the value of Purple for the Rufes in Aleutian conditions should best be described as "debatable". I agree that your other suggestion is much more likely.

Re: Purple rufe question




In Response To: Re: Purple rufe question *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

I believe you will find that it was a submerged wreck pulled from Attu that led to the mistake.

Re: IPMS "Purple Rufe" Question *PIC*



In Response To: Re: Purple rufe question (Brooks A Rowlett)

Brooks
In 1964, Charles ("Chuck") J. GRAHAM, with the help of his old college roommate, George VROOMAN, produced the IPMS "Color Guide For Japanese Aircraft: 1941-45." Chuck used paints mixed at his home to make color chips of colors thought to be applied on Japanese aircraft. Few were based on relic analysis or actual samples. Orders for the Color Guide were taken by Jay MILLER and the monies were collected for the Dallas Chapter, IPMS under president

Jim SAGE.
Below is the first published drawing of the "Purple Rufe" and a scan of an actual chip (N 9) from the Color Guide. This Color Guide was utilized by Rene FRANCILLON in his missive on Japanese aircraft with no verification as to authenticity from, or credit to, Chuck.
Chuck wrote Jim LONG the following:
"I personally mixed all the colors. I used a Higgin's ink product that was really more of a tempera paint than an ink, but it worked well with an airbrush....
(The purple) 'N 9,' (was) not from a color sample. This is one of the most intriguing colors and it is based only on written descriptions in Koku-Fan and a couple of other sources refer to it as 'wisteria.' As nearly as I could ever determine, it was used only in the Aleutians, if at all." *(Letter: GRAHAM/LONG, 11 December 1995)

FWIW
Jim Lansdale
Credit: "IPMS Color Guide For Japanese Aircraft: 1941-45," Charles J. Graham, 1964, p.4

Re: IPMS "Purple Rufe" Question




In Response To: Re: IPMS "Purple Rufe" Question *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)

Jim -
Having had a wysteria vine in my back yard, its colour is very pale. I really think that this legend of the undead comes from a red brown primed Rufe that has been overcoated with the standard (?) grey. The extreme weathering conditions in the Aleutians may have caused this effect. I vow that I am going to spray some paint chips to see what the effect is. I will then send these chips to my future son-in-law in Anchorage to see if the Alaskan light has any effect.

[Mad Cap Romanian]

Intereting!

I also wonder if the paint was a maroon colour that went "off", as the British say. I know that some of the Canadian Pacific coaches I've seen that have faded in the sun appear to be a different colour. Reds also fade out quite quickly.

[kittyfritters]

Bill,

That's quite an exchange on the purple Rufe question.

Sometimes combinations of finishishes can "go off" in rather surprising ways. The Aeronca Champion that I built for the "G" Challenge in 2005 was modeled after a prototype that had a maroon and white paint job. I used Brodak nitrate dope instead of my usual Krylon on the tissue. Nitrate dope is supposed to be compatable under acrylics, but when I airbrushed a maroon Testor's Acryl over the nitrate dope it went quite red! I have never experienced something like that with Acryl over Krylon.

The Japanese had a great deal of difficulty getting good quality pigments and binders for paint during the war and their aircraft finishes were not very durable. Many of the references to green camouflage jobs with silver or grey oversprayings that were actually from pictures of solid color aircraft with the paint flaking off! The Rufe on the box art, (Actually a Zero on floats. The tail is wrong.) has a Kana "Ko" at the beginning of the tail number, indicating that it was assigned to the "Koku Gijitsu Sho", the naval Air Technical Arsenal at the Yokosuka Navy Yard. This was a sort of Japanese version of Wright Field or Patuxent River Naval Air Station. Any Japanese aircraft used for experimental purposes would have been all over orange with a black cowl until US Carrier aircraft began strafing airfields on the home islands in late 1944 and early 1945 when they would have had green or blue camouflage paint applied to the upper surfaces.

As far as night time camouflage paint is concerned, the stealth aircraft were originally not to be painted black. A paint color was developed (I believe that it was a sort of powder blue.) that was even less visible at night than flat black. According to what I heard, when a model was shown to generals at the Pentagon, in the color proposed the Lockheed people were told, " Real men don't fly pastel airplanes." Don't quote me on this one, I don't want to start another myth.

Howard

[dbcisco]

Bill,

... According to what I heard, when a model was shown to generals at the Pentagon, in the color proposed the Lockheed people were told, " Real men don't fly pastel airplanes." Don't quote me on this one, I don't want to start another myth.

Howard

That was the SR-71. The original high mach paint was pink. The "paint" was actually a high heat, low friction RTV compound.
The color prompted (allegedly) the comment that "real men don;t fly pink airplanes".
According to one source, a pink SR-71 was loaned to the RAF but this has been denied by the British Gov't.

[BillParker]

Haze Paint has been an unguarded secret for nearly 60 years. It's a camoflage story that has "slipped throught the cracks" so to speak. Having never been listed in any Technical Order, and having been withdrawn from use before the appropriate revisions could be printed, Haze Paint has been something of a mystery. Since the peculiar properties of the paint made samples impractical, color chips were never circulated. Though it was the standard high altitude photo reconnaissance camouflage paint scheme from March to October 1942...most will not even be aware of its existence...or the fact that it was applied to nearly 130 photographic Lightnings! However, if any camouflage ever achieved invisiblity...Haze Paint was it!

It was in the summer of 1940 when a prominent paint manufacturer named Samuel Cabot contacted that Army about a new white paint with "unusual properties". It was a colloidal solution of zinc oxide in oil originally know by his stock number L 31340. These "unusual properties" were the grains of pigment themselves. They had a diameter below the wavelength of blue or violet light, which causes a high reflection in these color ranges. This is known as the "Tyndall Effect." This is what makes our skies blue, and the purple of our mountains majesty. Cabot theorized that by spraying this pigment over a dark blue or black base coat, only blue and violet would be reflected...with all other colors of the spectrum being absorbed by the dark base coat. Differing angles of reflection would change the rate of absorbtion and theoretically match the ambient sky color. Although "invisibility" was not promised under all circumstances, it was felt that under certain weather conditions and lighting situations, that this scheme would yield favorable results.



Cabot took his theories to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology which was involved with a number of military related scientific projects. Their engineers found his theories sound and hence urged the Materiel Division of the Army Air Corps to institute full scale testing. It would not be until late December 1941 that these tests would take place.

The December tests of the new paint scheme were performed using a Republic P-43. These initial trials were encouraging as to the prospects of utilizing this new pigment. In March 1942, Lockheed was given instructions to paint all of it's F-4 Lightnings in Haze Paint.


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